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Painted kitchen issues


(adam f) #1

ive spoke to andy about this kitchen through emails, there are some other bits where the paint has come off, but they have had a rat problems so they have had to pull the kick boards off, and where the dish washer and fridge has been pulled out.

but these are the two main problems one this the scratch theres two in different places, both the same as the one in photo, the other two pics are round the handles of the dish washer and fridge.

now im having to repaint the doors etc, but im concerned about it happening again.

spec of the job was krud kutter to wash down, sand, hoover down, tack cloth, primed in BIN, sanded, hoovered, tack cloth, 1st coat of dulux trade oil eggshell, sanded, hoovered, tack cloth, and final coat of eggshell.


(RJ Taylor Decoration Ltd) #2

They look like scratch and abrasion marks to me. Saying that it shouldnt come off with BIN.

If I’m using BIN now I tend to steer clear of Krud Kutter and clean down with meths and steel wool. I find this gets the job done with less mess and the meths is compatible with the shellac of BIN.

I would sand and wipe over with meths before applying the primer. I would think it would be fine after that.


(Andy Crichton) #3

Hi Adam

the photos dont lie, the BIN should have worked but hasn’t worked. Do you think the timber was waxy, BIN doesnt work its best with wax. Or still a bit damp maybe from KK?

When you start remedying it, it would be advisable to do one door as suggested by Ron, as a template tester. Sand it back hard. Prep and prime it and make sure it is on hard before proceeding to a finish. You might consider the Feelings option which will be more user friendly / quick drying compared to Dulux eggshell and a tough finish. If the sample meets the mark show he client for approval, you know you will have a similar result throughout. cheers.


(RJ Taylor Decoration Ltd) #4

As a kitchen finish Feelings would take some beating. Im using it now and for a water based product you have a lot of time to work it. Finish is first rate.


(Puma) #5

Bin goes off - there should be a use by date printed on the bottom of the can. You will be in the small minority of people who know this now!

I am not sure how scratch resistant bin is compared to other products - I did see a comparative test wherein in did badly over varnish. I did a test of my own ages ago and found it wasn’t that tough a coating as well - but both tests could have been an off can too!


(Andy Crichton) #6

[quote]Quote from Puma on December 19, 2013, 17:31
Bin goes off - there should be a use by date printed on the bottom of the can. You will be in the small minority of people who know this now!

[/quote]

How long does it take to go off Puma? Who’d have thought that with all the hard work those lac beetles put into making a tin of BIN, the clock is ticking even before they put the lid on.

This is the full monty Zinsser own spec on how to use BIN over varnish.

Adam, was it polyurethane varnished or factory type lacquer? Do any of those steps look like they might have been skipped or fell short?

I know what you mean Puma about scratch testing BIN primer and doesnt seem to be as strong as you hoped. I think if a surface has traces of wax/silicone wax that is a big achilles heel in BIN, rather than conventional varnish being an insoluble problem surface for BIN. chalk paint would work though :slight_smile:


(Puma) #7

I think you can buy decrepit Bin off the shelf! At least that’s what I hear. I first read about it on an American forum where someone had had this problem.

I am glad you think it is fine for varnish.


(adam f) #8

cheers guys.

the doors werent waxed, not sure on the finish it was factory finish, but defo not varnished, sorry for being specific, i can try and find out but i think all the customer knows is that they are oak, but thinking about it along the lines you have suggested andy about it being a BIN fail and about the polyurethane varnished or factory type lacquer, this has only happened on the doors which are oak not on any of the frames, or end panels both of which arent oak.

two questions about feelings, do they do a primer or is there one you would recommend, and where is the best place to order it from?


(RJ Taylor Decoration Ltd) #9

All Tukkurila products are available from Holman Paints, there is a link on this website.
They do a water based primer undercoat, Feelings Furniture Primer, and a Cover Stain type product, Otex. I prefer to use Otex over BIN if I can as it is easier to work with.


(Puma) #10

Has anyone give Zinsser All Coat a whirl?

For varnish I would use Gloss off or a no-sanding-needed type of wipe on product.


(adam f) #11

ive been on this job this week, couple of things all the issues were on the base unit doors, i told the customer i would prefer to re do the whole thing, but they didnt want the hassle so ive ended up just doing the doors.

because i was only doing the doors ive used the same paint but new tin, dulux trade eggshell with some owterol oil in it

went through all the prep stages as discussed in this post, coat of dulux trade ultra grip primer, its two pack primer, applied first coat of the eggshell yesterday everything went fine no issues at all, i finished painting at about 5pm last night, went back this morning and its still wet, as in leaves your finger print in the paint wet, a bit drier by 7pm tonight.

my concerns come from the fact any time ive used dulux trade eggshell its dried really quick ive painted wood work on the morning and its been dry by 4pm.

customer wise wont be a problem what ever i need to do, couldnt ask for a better customer, ive been looking after there house while they have been on holiday so defo no issues with the customer.


(Russ Pike) #12

Hi Adam,

A few things spring to mind here: Firstly, Dulux Ultra Grip is a Primer not a Sealer, it offers good adhesion but because its waterbased, the Oil Eggshell could be drawing through contaminates stopping the Eggshell from curing, Also did you leave the Ultra Grip to cure fully (16 hours) before re-coating with Eggy? This could also be a cause for non drying Eggy! We have also had some very strange weather and humidity/moisture levels this week, its a long shot but could be adding to your problem!

Get some fans blowing plenty of air about, this should help with drying times but I would leave for the full recommended times on all products applied.

Oak can be a temperamental species and you really have to use a system/spec bespoke to each scenario, there’s not one particular spec for all.
I always degrease with KK, then wet flat with 320g abranet and KK as this provides a great key! Final wipe over with meths once the wood has dried out from the KK wet flat and you have a belt n braces prep ready for a shellac based primer/sealer

Hope this helps, keep us posted on progress and the outcome

Regards Russ


(Andy Crichton) #13

Hi Adam, I would add to what Russ has said by suggesting eliminating any product issues

you said the frames arent being done at the moment. Maybe you should use them to do a test place to eliminate a couple of possible product problems.

Ultra Grip a section and leave to dry exactly per the instructions Russ said, then apply your eggshell neat, no Owatrol to one section, and with Owatrol added to another. The results will tell you if the owatrol is retarding the drying.

if the neat eggshell isnt drying though, also do a non kitchen piece of wood, or a board with oil undercoat or coverstain, leave to dry per instructions and apply the eggshell neat. If there are any drying iissues it will be the eggshell at fault. Ironically after our Twitter chat, maybe the tint?

And finally, which may demonstrate what Russ is saying about the “power” of water based to draw tannin etc through even oil basecoats and affect the top coat in any number of ways (in this case slowing the drying), apply some water based paint over the supergrip. Tell us what you see.

cheers

Andy


(adam f) #14

cheers guys, the primer defo had its 16 hrs and was dry and passed the scratch test, the point about the weather/environment might be a point, as the customer was on holiday and the heating was off apart from the 3/4 times i put it on boost, i did have a hot air fan on friday, which helped dry it off a bit better.

i havent been there today as they were due to come back from holiday, heres a follow on question if the eggy was slow drying because of the weather/environment and is now fully tried and is perfect, will i be okay to carry with further problems?


(Russ Pike) #15

Adam, that depends on if it was down to weather conditions retarding the drying! Did you eliminate the other possible issues that Andy referred to? You can always add a splash off Driers rather than owatrol when working in damp conditions.


(adam f) #16

no not yet, spoke to the customer on monday and it was tacky on saturday but fully dry on sunday, i havent been to see it yet as she doesnt want me to go back till next thurdays as all her kids are home from uni, so il give it try on thursday.

i was 50/50 weather i should of used owatrol or dires but opted for owatrol to help the eggshell to flow out.


(Russ Pike) #17

In those conditions Adam, I would have put a splash of driers and a splash of spirits to help flow out, the spirit will also enhance drying. Some say it breaks down the strength of the product but a little splash never did me any harm and Ive grown up into a big strong boy! The Owatrol has most likely retarded the drying in those damp conditions.


(adam f) #18

just a quick update, i painted a area that didnt have any ultra grip primer on and left it over night and it was bone dry the next, same with a area that had ultra grip primer, i think it was down to the weather being freaky and the house being empty with no heating on.

when i put the 2nd coat on the weather was spot on, and the house had people in it so the heating was on for the days before and during i was there, il be popping in some time next week to have a proper look.

once again thanks for the advice and tips its very greatly appreciated


(Andy Crichton) #19

That’s an epic with a fine ending, cheers Adam.


(greenpainting) #20

And just goes to show it doesn’t matter what products we have or how good we are with them - if nature decides to come along and screw it all up then it’s just gonna get screwed up :slight_smile: